Changing the subject to not distract from the Open Research in MENA forum, but continuing on the conversation started there. I'll leave Danny's invitation for further conversation at that forum here: If anyone is interested I will be talking about open infrastructure (as > opposed to commercial infrastructure that supports open research, described > as ‘open research infrastructure’) at the 3rd Annual Forum for Open > Research in MENA (Middle East and North Africa). “The Commercial Cash Cow > Trap – why we should redirect infrastructure investment towards open”. The > session is on 21 October 9:30 - 11:00am in Qatar (6:30am UTC) Registration is free <https://lnkd.in/gMBRRFBp> for online attendees. Now, my thoughts on "Diamond OA": The notion that Diamond journals are "free-to-read-free-to-publish journals whose costs are covered by a sponsor" is still problematic. The majority are not "sponsored" in the usual sense of the word. Most importantly, Diamond journals are not journals that are in need of a "model" for sustainability. Most Diamond journals are sustained using the same "model" as other research activities: through a combination of faculty interest and involvement, institutional in-kind and cash supports, and (usually government) research funding. This is the exact same "business model" that I use to support my research agenda as a faculty member. Somehow, my research program continues to be "sustainable" thanks to various forms of "sponsorship". The notion brought forward by the word "sponsorship" comes from an erroneous view that scholarly publishing is first and foremost a business. It is not, and Diamond journals is a term that can only serve its function if it is not co-opted. "Diamond" needs to stand for something other than "no APCs" if it is going to be a meaningful term. The moment we concede that "Diamond" is a way to describe journals in search for a business model, we have allowed the term to be co-opted (and thank you, Danny, for drawing attention to the co-option in this space through your blog post). Not exactly about the same thing, but we recently published a letter <https://direct.mit.edu/qss/article/doi/10.1162/qss_c_00331/124449/We-need-to-rethink-the-way-we-identify-diamond> in QSS to alert the bibliometrics community. When looking at price lists to estimate APCs, we did find various examples of journals with $0 APCs (usually as a promotional strategy) and others that had APCs covered by societies or other entities. These are still APC-journals that could indeed be described as "sponsored", but certainly not as "diamond". Marc-André Simard, Leigh-Ann Butler, Juan Pablo Alperin, Stefanie Haustein; We need to rethink the way we identify diamond open access journals in quantitative science studies. *Quantitative Science Studies* 2024; doi: https://doi.org/10.1162/qss_c_00331 Juan On Tue, 15 Oct 2024 at 16:51, Rick Anderson <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Responding briefly from my phone here to point out that agreeing with > Jean-Claude about appropriate taxonomy is fine, but Sara is correct that ad > hominem arguments are not welcome on this list. > > With my list owner hat on, I’m going to (again) remind everyone to avoid > personal attacks here. > > Thanks, > Rick Anderson > > ----- > Brief message from mobile device > > On Oct 15, 2024, at 5:46 PM, Danny Kingsley <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > Hi, agreed about needing a productive dialogue Sara, but I also agree > with Jean-Claude in that ‘forking’ descriptions of OA is problematic. > > I have written about this after much discussion of the issue at FORCE2024 > and FSCI2024 - "Language co-option in the open space", Upstream Blog, 3 > September 2024, > https://upstream.force11.org/language-co-option-in-the-open-space/ > > > It was also part of the plenary I shared with Dr Leslie McIntosh - Trust, > Global and All That Jazz, 1 Aug 2024, FORCE2024 VIDEO: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4syIhPYeRg > > > If anyone is interested I will be talking about open infrastructure (as > opposed to commercial infrastructure that supports open research, described > as ‘open research infrastructure’) at the 3rd Annual Forum for Open > Research in MENA (Middle East and North Africa). “The Commercial Cash Cow > Trap – why we should redirect infrastructure investment towards open”. The > session is on 21 October 9:30 - 11:00am in Qatar (6:30am UTC) > Registration is free <https://lnkd.in/gMBRRFBp> for online attendees. > > Danny > > > On 16 Oct 2024, at 9:21 am, Sara Rouhi <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > I’ll be attending remotely, Rick! > > Jean-Claude - the folks at Delta Think and others who are thinking about > OA taxonomies are not silly. They’re working with the existing problematic > verbiage. One could argue for them bringing more nuance to the language > but there’s no call for denigrating their work. > > I’d welcome a robust discussion of financial sustainability of > "free-to-read-free-to-publish journals whose costs are covered by a > sponsor" and the labels for such a model. Business models should be a topic > on this thread. If the label is the issue - then spell it out. "Free-to-read-free-to-publish > journals whose costs are covered by a sponsor" is a lot to type. I actually > think "sponsored journals" is fair and better than the weirdly extractive > language of the jewels/metals system. > > Note: a not-so-gentle reminder that humility and curiosity go a long way > to fostering a productive dialogue. > > My two cents, > Sara > > Sara Rouhi > Director, Open Science, Publishing Innovation > AIP Publishing > [log in to unmask] > > Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef> > ------------------------------ > *From:* OpenCafe-l <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Jean-Claude > Guédon <[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2024 6:09:39 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* Re: [OPENCAFE-L] The 3rd Annual Forum for Open Research in > MENA Starts in Just 1 Week! > > Please, do not call "Diamond OA" "sponsored" as these silly people at > Delta Think do. When I saw that expression in Tasha Mellins-Cohen article > on OA business models, I said to myself: here we go again. Gold used to > mean OA through journals, with no reference to business models. Suddenly, > Gold became APC-Gold. Now Diamond, already burdened by a quasi synonym - > platinum - is going to be "sponsored OA" with the intimation of course that > it is not a real business model. Well, from that perspective, diamond is > not a business model, it is the result of a policy that says that > publishing is an integral part of research, and, like all research, it is > supported not by a business plan, but by various kinds of subsidies, many > of which are public. The NSF, in accepting to pay for page charges in the > 1950s, rested its case on precisely this argument. > > Jean-Claude Guédon > > Le 2024-10-15 à 14:47, Rick Anderson a écrit : > > In case anyone on the list is planning to attend and is interested, I’ll > be presenting a workshop at the Annual Forum on the strengths and > weaknesses of various open access publishing models. > > > And even if you don’t attend the workshop, if you’re there, please grab me > and say hello! (I’ll be the only one in a bow tie.) > > > --- > Rick Anderson > University Librarian > Brigham Young University > (801) 422-4301 > [log in to unmask] > > > > > *From: *OpenCafe-l <[log in to unmask]> > <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Nahil Nassar > <[log in to unmask]> <[log in to unmask]> > *Reply-To: *Nahil Nassar <[log in to unmask]> > <[log in to unmask]> > *Date: *Monday, October 14, 2024 at 6:19 AM > *To: *"[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]> > <[log in to unmask]> <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject: *[OPENCAFE-L] The 3rd Annual Forum for Open Research in MENA > Starts in Just 1 Week! > > > The 2024 Annual Forum will offer a series of carefully tailored > presentations and panels addressing key themes and topics related to the > advancement of Open Science policies and practices in research institutions > and research communities throughout the Arab world. We are honoured to have > the *Qatar National Library* <https://www.qnl.qa/en> as our Host Partner > for this event, and to have the continued support and funding from the *Knowledge > E Foundation.* <https://knowledgee.com/knowledge-e-foundation/> > > > This year’s conference theme is: *Transforming Knowledge Into Action. *We > invite librarians, researchers, policy makers, higher-education > institutions to join us and work together towards a more open Arab world. > > > Further to our earlier emails about this year’s Annual Forum for Open > Research (taking place 21-24 October in Doha, in partnership with the Qatar > National Library), I wanted to let you know that we have made *online > access* *free for all delegates*. > > > With the ongoing financial and political difficulties faced by many across > the region, we have decided it is important that the event can be accessed > by everyone and the valuable discussions taking place can be shared > globally. In addition, we have listened to our community, and your many > requests for more affordable access options. Online registration will > therefore be free for all delegates who wish to join virtually (though we > hope many of our network will still decide to join in person in Doha). *I > hope you will share this information with friends, students and colleagues > across your network. * > > > In addition, I wanted to let you know that we have further expanded our > programme to include a high-impact exploration of the open science > advancements made across the region, with a special opening roundtable > discussion from key regional stakeholders including the leaders of the > Association of Arab Universities, the Arab Scientific Research and > Education Network, the Africa Reproducibility Network and the Arab > Institute of Knowledge Management. > > > Moreover, we are hugely honoured that this year’s Annual Forum will be > taking place under the Patronage of *His Excellency Dr Hamad Al Kuwari, *State > Minister of Qatar with the rank of Deputy Prime-Minister and President of > Qatar National Library. > > > I do hope you will all be able to join us. Register here: > https://forumforopenresearch.com/registration/ > > > > > > > [image: Image removed by sender. [log in to unmask]] > *Nahil Nassar* > Community Engagement Manager > Forum for Open Research in MENA > > > *O*: +971 4 422 7043 > *E:* [log in to unmask] > http://www.forumforopen.org > [image: Image removed by sender. [log in to unmask]] > <https://twitter.com/form4open> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives > <https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L> > > To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: > [log in to unmask] > > ------------------------------ > > Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives > <https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L> > > To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: > [log in to unmask] > > > > ------------------------------ > > Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives > <https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L> > > To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: > [log in to unmask] > > ------------------------------ > > Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives > <https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L> > > To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: > [log in to unmask] > > > > ------------------------------ > > Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives > <https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L> > > To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: > [log in to unmask] > > > ------------------------------ > > Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives > <https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L> > > To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: > [log in to unmask] > ######################################################################## Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives: https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: [log in to unmask] ########################################################################