I've been following this discussion with interest and I rarely post to this group, but speaking of authors' voices, I'm surprised this discussion hasn't mentioned the sale of use of authors' content to AI companies <https://www.chronicle.com/article/two-major-academic-publishers-signed-deals-with-ai-companies-some-professors-are-outraged?emailConfirmed=true&supportSignUp=true&supportForgotPassword=true&[log in to unmask]&success=true&code=success&bc_nonce=888j0k3yy64arlryk7dqpo&sra=true> by Taylor & Francis and Wiley. Yes, there may be potential for misuse of content published under CC-BY, but doesn't AI's use have even more potential for plagiarism and misuse? Not to mention publishers profiting even more from content for which authors were not paid and may have paid for? Best wishes, Margaret Margaret Winker, MD eLearning Program Director and Trustee, World Association of Medical Editors *** wame.org WAME eLearning Program <https://wame.org/wame-elearning-program.php> @WAME_editors www.facebook.com/WAMEmembers On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 10:42 PM Rick Anderson <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Understood, but my questions remain. > > > > I doubt that anyone believes this is a new conversation – we’ve been > arguing about authors’ rights, funder/government OA mandates, the pros/cons > of various kinds of CC licenses, etc. for many years now. And the voices > that have been centered and amplified throughout those conversations over > the years have not typically been those of authors. That’s why, when I see > authors’ positions being represented in public documents by those whose > goal is to change authors’ minds and behavior, I can’t help but wonder what > those authors would think about how their positions are being represented. > > > > --- > > Rick Anderson > > University Librarian > > Brigham Young University > > (801) 422-4301 > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > > *From: *Danny Kingsley <[log in to unmask]> > *Date: *Monday, August 19, 2024 at 9:35 PM > *To: *Rick Anderson <[log in to unmask]> > *Cc: *OpenCafe-l <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject: *Re: [OPENCAFE-L] [EXT] Re: [OPENCAFE-L] Legislative opposition > to the Nelson Memo continues to fail to die... > > > > Rick it was eight years ago. I sent it through to indicate this is not a > new conversation. > > > > Danny > > > > On 20 Aug 2024, at 13:28, Rick Anderson <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > Thanks for sharing these notes, Danny. I notice that the actual voices of > the researchers are not heard in this document – instead, while it’s the > summary of a conversation involving researchers, the summary appears to > have been prepared by people who want researchers to accede to OA/CC-BY > requirements and don’t always seem to interpret researchers’ concerns > entirely charitably. > > > > Are there any other records of this meeting – preferably, records that > give the academics themselves a direct voice? Failing that, is it possible > to know the names of the people who were in the meeting? It would be > interesting to hear their thoughts on how their positions and concerns were > represented in this public document. > > > > --- > > Rick Anderson > > University Librarian > > Brigham Young University > > (801) 422-4301 > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > > *From: *Danny Kingsley <[log in to unmask]> > *Date: *Monday, August 19, 2024 at 8:42 PM > *To: *Rick Anderson <[log in to unmask]> > *Cc: *OpenCafe-l <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject: *Re: [OPENCAFE-L] [EXT] Re: [OPENCAFE-L] Legislative opposition > to the Nelson Memo continues to fail to die... > > > > Hi all, > > > > This discussion reminds me of those we were having in the UK in 2016. I > convened a meeting to discuss this and wrote it up: > > > > Is CC-BY really a problem or are we boxing shadows? - Unlocking Research > <https://unlockingresearch-blog.lib.cam.ac.uk/?p=555> > > lib.cam.ac.uk <https://unlockingresearch-blog.lib.cam.ac.uk/?p=555> > > <image001.png> <https://unlockingresearch-blog.lib.cam.ac.uk/?p=555> > > > > > > It covers the issues of: moral rights, translation, plagiarism, their > party copyright. sensitive information, commercialisation, academic > freedom. There’s also a few references throughout. > > > > Danny > > > > > On 20 Aug 2024, at 07:07, Rick Anderson <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > Good question, Ali. > > > > There are lots of different kinds of “repurposing.” Referring to someone > else’s research findings, or citing them (accurately or not) to further > one’s own agenda, would be one example. As you note, that’s entirely > possible under a traditional copyright regime in which the author (or her > assign, like a publisher) retains all the exclusive prerogatives of > copyright. And no one should be prevented from doing that – a system in > which the only people who could cite someone else’s research are those who > agree with the original researcher would obviously be a disaster. > > > > A different kind of repurposing is the creation of derivative works. For > example, suppose a photojournalist produces a photographic essay designed > to help members of a marginalized group tell their stories, and someone who > hates that group repurposes the entire essay for use as an illustration of > that group’s supposed deviancy. (That’s not a hypothetical example: see > https://scholarlykitchen.sspnet.org/2014/03/31/cc-by-copyright-and-stolen-advocacy/.) > If the author has retained his or her exclusive rights as a copyright > holder, s/he can sue and will likely win. If the author has licensed the > essay under a CC BY license, not only would s/he have no legal recourse, > but the license terms would require that s/he be credited as the creator of > the original version of the derivative work. > > > > As I mentioned below, the same thing can happen, though probably on a much > less dramatic scale, with scholarly research: the issue in this case isn’t > being _*cited*_ by those with an ideological agenda the author abhors (as > you note, that can happen regardless), but rather having _*derivatives of > one’s work*_ produced by those whose agenda one abhors, and – even worse > – those people being required by the terms of the license to attach your > name to the derivatives. > > > > Of course, if you want your work to be freely available for all possible > uses and reuses, but don’t necessarily want to be credited as the > originator of the work, you can use a CC0 waiver instead of a CC BY > license, thus putting your work immediately into the public domain. Then > you’ll only be credited if the creator of the derivative follows standard > scholarly norms of citation. > > > > Best, > > Rick > > > > --- > > Rick Anderson > > University Librarian > > Brigham Young University > > (801) 422-4301 > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > > *From: *OpenCafe-l <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Ali Krzton < > [log in to unmask]> > *Reply-To: *Ali Krzton <[log in to unmask]> > *Date: *Monday, August 19, 2024 at 2:50 PM > *To: *"[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject: *Re: [OPENCAFE-L] [EXT] Re: [OPENCAFE-L] Legislative opposition > to the Nelson Memo continues to fail to die... > > > > I'm inclined to agree about the law of unintended consequences, but I'm > struggling to see how open licenses, specifically, allow work to be > repurposed in ways you can't already do now with someone's book or paper. > Prior to becoming a librarian my research field was evolutionary > bio/bioanthropology, where controversial questions and research topics > abound. People claimed research in those areas demonstrated all kinds of > pet hypotheses. We can look at something like what the "redpill" community > did with evolutionary psychology - that started twenty years ago, at > least. What kind of "repurposing" does CC-BY permit that isn't already > happening? Not trying to be contrary here...I genuinely want to > understand. I certainly have my own concerns about what can happen with > CC0 (public domain) and data, but that's probably because I am a data > librarian and am more familiar with what's going on in that area. > > Best, > > Ali K. > ------------------------------ > > *From:* OpenCafe-l <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Rick > Anderson <[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Monday, August 19, 2024 2:51 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* Re: [OPENCAFE-L] [EXT] Re: [OPENCAFE-L] Legislative opposition > to the Nelson Memo continues to fail to die... > > > > Of course, “with attribution” can become an issue when one’s work is being > repurposed in ways or for purposes with which the author disagrees. Imagine > publishing research that deals in some way with inheritable > characteristics, and that is then adapted for reuse by someone with an > ideological agenda that you strongly oppose. A CC BY license makes just > such reuse entirely acceptable, AND requires that your name be attached to > it. > > > > The law of unintended consequences is both real and merciless. 😊 > > > > --- > > Rick Anderson > > University Librarian > > Brigham Young University > > (801) 422-4301 > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > > *From: *OpenCafe-l <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Scott > Delman <[log in to unmask]> > *Reply-To: *Scott Delman <[log in to unmask]> > *Date: *Monday, August 19, 2024 at 1:44 PM > *To: *"[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject: *Re: [OPENCAFE-L] [EXT] Re: [OPENCAFE-L] Legislative opposition > to the Nelson Memo continues to fail to die... > > > > Angela, > > > > This is very interesting and also a bit concerning with regards to the > “attribution” aspect. That remains the single most important issue for > authors with respect to sharing licenses and also having scholarly Works > ingested and trained on by LLMs…..without attribution as a firm > requirement, the entire ecosystem will become even more fraught with > plagiarism and other forms of misconduct…. > > > > Regards, > > Scott Delman > ACM Director of Publications > > Assoc. Computing Machinery > 1601 Broadway, 10th Floor > New York, New York 10019 > Office: +1-212-626-0659 <+12126260659> > Mobile: +1-212-729-7515 <+12127297515> > Fax: +1-212-869-0481 <+12128690481> > Email: [log in to unmask] > Skype: scott.delman > https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottdelman > ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-0381-0696 > > > > > > *From: *OpenCafe-l <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Angela > Cochran <[log in to unmask]> > *Date: *Monday, August 19, 2024 at 2:23 PM > *To: *[log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject: *Re: [OPENCAFE-L] [EXT] Re: [OPENCAFE-L] Legislative opposition > to the Nelson Memo continues to fail to die... > > Please note that the NIH draft policy requires grantee/authors to make the > following attestation: > > "I hereby grant to NIH, a royalty-free, nonexclusive and irrevocable right > to reproduce, publish, or otherwise use this work for Federal purposes, and > to authorize others to do so. This grant of rights includes the right to > create derivative works and make the final, peer-reviewed manuscript > publicly available upon the Official Date of Publication." > > The NIH is not requiring a CC BY license but is requiring that they get > the same rights without any requirement for attribution. This directly > relates to language in the appropriation reports. Public comments on the > NIH draft policy are due today and there will likely be a lot of commentary > on this. > > Angela Cochran > VP, Publishing > ASCO > > ######################################################################## > > Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives: > https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L > > To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: > [log in to unmask] > > ######################################################################## > > > ------------------------------ > > Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives > <https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L> > > To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: > [log in to unmask] > > > ------------------------------ > > Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives > <https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L> > > To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: > [log in to unmask] > > > ------------------------------ > > Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives > <https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L> > > To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: > [log in to unmask] > > > ------------------------------ > > Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives > <https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L> > > To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: > [log in to unmask] > > > > Dr Danny Kingsley > > Scholarly Communication Consultant > Visiting Fellow, Australian National Centre for the Public Awareness of > Science <https://cpas.anu.edu.au/people/dr-danny-kingsley>, ANU > > Adjunct Senior Lecturer, Charles Sturt University > Member, Board of Directors, FORCE11 > <https://force11.org/info/people-at-force11/> > Member, Australian Academy of Science National Committee for Data in > Science > <https://www.science.org.au/supporting-science/national-committees-science/national-committee-for-data-in-science> > --------------------------------------- > e: [log in to unmask] > m: +61 (0)480 115 937 > t:@dannykay68 > > b: @dannykay68.bsky.social > o: 0000-0002-3636-5939 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives > <https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L> > > To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: > [log in to unmask] > > > > Dr Danny Kingsley > > Scholarly Communication Consultant > Visiting Fellow, Australian National Centre for the Public Awareness of > Science <https://cpas.anu.edu.au/people/dr-danny-kingsley>, ANU > > Adjunct Senior Lecturer, Charles Sturt University > Member, Board of Directors, FORCE11 > <https://force11.org/info/people-at-force11/> > Member, Australian Academy of Science National Committee for Data in > Science > <https://www.science.org.au/supporting-science/national-committees-science/national-committee-for-data-in-science> > --------------------------------------- > e: [log in to unmask] > m: +61 (0)480 115 937 > t:@dannykay68 > > b: @dannykay68.bsky.social > o: 0000-0002-3636-5939 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives > <https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L> > > To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: > [log in to unmask] > ######################################################################## Access the OPENCAFE-L Home Page and Archives: https://listserv.byu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=OPENCAFE-L To unsubscribe from OPENCAFE-L send an email to: [log in to unmask] ########################################################################